[00:00:00] Dominique: ​Hello, welcome to another episode of Green Champions.

[00:00:13] Adam: Thanks for joining us in a conversation with real people, making real environmental change in the work that they do. I'm here with Dominique, our sustainability expert.

[00:00:21] Dominique: And I'm so glad to be here alongside Adam, our social enterprise extraordinaire. We bring you guests who saw the potential for impact in their job or community and did something about it.

[00:00:30] Adam: Green Champions is a platform to share sustainability success stories, and plant new ideas.

[00:00:35] Dominique: This is our mini series in Val Bruna, Italy, highlighting an event called NanoValbruna.

[00:00:40] Adam: NanoValbruna is an international forum that brings scientists, entrepreneurs, professors, professionals, journalists, science communicators, and especially young people, to the heart of the Julian Alps, to talk about innovation, environment, and regeneration. Dominique had the chance to attend NanoValbruna and capture the stories of their accomplishments, and so as you're listening, I'm also here equally excited to hear this episode.

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[00:01:05] Dominique: Today, I am joined by Lorenzo Cercelletta. 

Lorenzo is part of the Regeneration Hub Friuli team. He's the director of Regenerative Design. 

The Role of Design in a Sustainable World

[00:01:13] Dominique: Hint, that will be our discussion today. He's also the founder of a multidisciplinary design studio called, Quiet. And today we're talking about how design plays a role in regenerative change.

Thanks for joining me today, Lorenzo. Okay. First, tell me right out the gate, what's your perspective broadly on the role of design in the way that we live?

[00:01:32] Lorenzo: I think that design like any other profession as or should have a social component to it. And that means that it should be dedicated to make things better in general for people, not just companies. For the environment, for animals, for plants, for resources. So it should encompass a lot of different things. And that can be applied not just to design as I was saying, but I think that there is a social aspect to any type of work, right? 

So you can be a lawyer and concentrate on just getting a high profile clients for example, and make money out of that. Or you could see that whatever you do, even high profile clients, have some kind of criteria that guide your profession in a way, right? So maybe do a lot of pro bono to counterbalance that. 

I think design has been like many other things, has become more and more individualistic in a way where we concentrate. People like brands more often and it's more about individualism and the way I see it, the name of my studio is Quiet because for me, design should be quiet, shouldn't be shouting, should be behind the scenes trying to make the world a better place starting from the very small things because big problems can be broken down to small units like an equation, mathematical equation and then be resolved bit by bit, right? So it's not so much about being flashy or being necessarily out there, being all over, posting like crazy or putting out their crazy claims. But it's more about actions really. So yeah, that's my take on life more than design, I would say.

And about sustainability, the problem with design is that, at least the way I see it is that it's been more and more dedicated in service of companies. And generally speaking, most companies are for profit and profit cannot be the only criterion for success. So depending on the way you see it, I would say that design is trying to make things better also in terms of, not linearity, but thinking about closing the circle. So nowadays we're talking more in my field, at least, we're talking more about circular design thinking. So design thinking is at the core, basically of what I do as a living. So interaction design, right? So understanding people, doing research and then coming up with solutions with digital platforms or hybrid services. A forum like NanoValbruna for example. And generally speaking like the rest of society, we weren't so much thinking about the end life of things.

And now in design, fortunately, we're starting to discuss that and trying to think about closing the circle and thinking about the end of life of whatever we do. It can be a product, it can be a service, right? So with products, it's much easier to talk about. But it can also be about services, right? Making things sustainable. So a service that can actually endure, can be scalable, but can also work for many, many years, many, many decades. It can be improved upon rather than creating something that then needs to be thrown away. So it's not just about products, it's also about services.

Lorenzo's Journey into Design

[00:04:26] Dominique: How did you find design?

[00:04:28] Lorenzo: Well, since a young age, I was very good at drawing. I'm not sure if it's true, if I remember correctly, but I think I started drawing before walking, standing up, and before even talking much. So drawing has always been my outlet. And, yeah, it's big in the family. I guess like my grandpa used to be an inventor and patenting a lot of things. Like, the generation of World War II, in Europe, at least, they were all pretty resourceful and inventive.

 I was always drawing stuff and trying to patent things and license stuff and all that kind of stuff. And so my dad is like that. I am like that. I guess I'm a bad carbon copy of my granddad. So he was the best. 

But yeah, I was very artistic, always very creative and very, very drawn to drawing. I liked music, so I was in arts in general, so I was evaluating whether to do like artistic high school or study music, music college or whatever whatever. My mother wasn't really down, so, I studied like classical studies, so Ancient Latin, Greek, Ancient Greek, all sorts of different things. And then when it was a time to decide university, faculty, then I could do something related to drawing, I guess. And, yeah, it wasn't an option. My mom wasn't really down with being an artist type of thing, which would've been interesting. I think I would've had fun. But then, the closest thing was like, "Okay, if you're creative and you're artistic and you need to make it into something that is a bit more concrete type of profession, I guess, design is really an easy answer." So that's how I got to design, I guess.

[00:06:03] Dominique: And then I know you've built on your knowledge of design in a variety of places. Can you just share like a quick little summary of the journey you took from where you call home, other places you had to learn design, and then how it brought you back home?

[00:06:15] Lorenzo: This is something I guess everyone can relate to in the sense that not a lot of people know exactly what they wanna do when they grow up. And so to me, what made more sense, it's been zigzagging, so trying to get somewhere more or less, I know where I want to be in terms of like broad direction. But you don't know exactly how you're gonna get there. 

I started with industrial design and interior design in Italy and then I finished my studies, my BA in Finland, which is a country that is pretty big in architecture and industrial design in general. Scandinavian design, Alvar Aalto and all those things. Ikea. 

And then I discovered more, obviously there was a lot of 3D modeling involved and rendering, of course. And then I discovered interactive spaces, so beginning of virtual reality and interacting in virtual spaces like virtual museums where you can see furniture in there. And then thanks to that, I discovered interaction design. So I moved to London to do a Master in Interaction Design. I liked the field very much. Not so much the university or faculty per se. There were some problems, but that led me onto the Interaction Design. 

And then I discovered that a very important professor in the field that used to work at Royal College of Art opened a Department of Interaction Design in Italy. So I moved back from London to Venice and lived there for a couple of years and did another master in interaction design. Which is, if people want to know, it's about designing interactions, meaning understanding how people think from biological perspective, cognitive theory of psychology, all that kind of stuff, ergonomics, anthropology, sociology and trying to do research in order to understand the way people behave, why they do so, et cetera, et cetera. And then to design something around that. It can be a product, it can be a service, whatever. And, yeah, so I moved back to Venice to do that and I started doing interactive installations for museums and galleries.

So the artistic side of things got back in. Just like music, which has been another passion that I've cultivated for a while. And then I won another bursary to go to this time work abroad. So I went to Berlin and I stayed there 10 years, more or less. And since I arrived there, basically I worked with startups. So then I've been involved with the startup world and product design and all those things that we are pretty accustomed to today. But back in the day, we're in a big thing, at least in Europe, right? So there was no Silicon Valley when I moved to Berlin there, it wasn't that international. So I was there before the startup scene happened, and then it basically blew up and I was, I guess in the right place at the right time. And so I then concentrated on doing that. 

Misconceptions About Design

[00:08:47] Dominique: What do you think people often misunderstand about the significance of design, especially when we think about regeneration or sustainability? Like what is something that you feel like you're often trying to dispel a myth about or make them see?

[00:09:00] Lorenzo: I'm gonna take this one from a philosophical angle first. I think it's more interesting and also more understandable for anyone that is not involved in design. I think that we are clearly visual animals most of our lives, unless we have like some impairments of some sort, right?

Most of our lives revolve around seeing stuff. We are very visually driven animals. So the problem with that is that we all have an opinion about anything visual and that makes it so that everybody thinks they are a professional designer, which in fact they're not. 

On the other hand, it's also true that anyone is a designer, because any of us actually decorates their room, curate more or less their fashion style, whatever. So that's design also, right? So design is part of human nature. Everybody's a designer. 

Now, not everybody's a professional designer, right? So it's really hard to tell people that have an opinion about design that they don't actually understand what they're talking about. You might have an opinion, that doesn't make you a professional designer. I know a lot of stuff about medicine, but I'm no doctor. And, so I would say that's the first issue if you want, or roadblock or misconception if you will, about design, I would say.

[00:10:05] Dominique: And that feels like a growing problem because we only have the ability to all share our opinions more, and the platforms where we share is letting us like sometimes be even more creative. I just feel like that's interesting. We can all have even more opinions about everything.

[00:10:18] Lorenzo: Yeah. Well, it's great to be in a democracy where everybody can have an opinion and voice their opinion. So that's great. Probably not necessarily, I think like just because you have freedom of having an opinion, maybe you shouldn't necessarily share it all the time. I think that that's a bit of a conundrum because on the one hand, democracy is based on that and it's great, that anyone can have an opinion.

But I guess in a society where technology not only has taken over, but also the curve of innovation is hyperbolic now with AI and all the rest. Then there is more and more people connected. More and more people have access. More and more people can share, share, share. And at the end of the day, that creates basically a cloud of white noise, right?I think one thing that is super cool about design not being so critical, but being a bit more proactive on my part, is that design is a very efficient tool because it's been there for thousands of years. And what it can do for not only companies, but also society in general, governments, local governments, et cetera, et cetera, it can accelerate solution finding.

So, it's basically a cheat code of some sort to find solutions without wasting too much time and energy and money and all of that, right? When used correctly, design couple with research, for example, allows you to come up with solutions in a shorter span of time. 

We can see design in a way as a tool. Also to design other tools, to solve problems, and to make things more, not just more efficient, but also more sustainable, I would say coming back to sustainability.

[00:11:49] Dominique: 

Regeneration vs. Sustainability: A Design Perspective

[00:11:49] Dominique: I've explained on the podcast that the focus of the week is regeneration. Can you share your take on the difference between regeneration and sustainability and just how you visualize them? 

[00:11:59] Lorenzo: Well, I think whether we like it or not, there is a finite amount of resources, at least on this planet, at least the resources that we can reach. It's finite, right? And I think regeneration means that whatever gets done by anyone being an individual, a group of people, a corporation, you name it, institution, public, whatever, private, needs to account for the fact that, there cannot be only profit as criterion to do certain things a certain way. 

Which means that when we are deciding to design whatever, to plan whatever, to build whatever, we should also factor in, "is this approach scalable? Is what we're doing scalable?" 

Let's say that we decide to build a mega structure, right? Okay. We don't care so much about how much steel and concrete gets involved in that. We just build the most massive thing, like a statement of like, I don't know, anarchy star or whatever, just to have like some kind of a landmark for example, right? Is that sustainable? If everybody was building that thing right now, would it be sustainable? No. 

I will say that probably 80% of the stuff that we do as a society in general worldwide is not sustainable? Let's talk about stadium for example, right? 

[00:13:11] Dominique: But stadiums are nowadays built with a lot of concrete and they're basically not really sustainable, right? So the question is like, when you're building a new stadium, I think we should all think about if we build it this way, who will build another hundred thousand around the world and it being sustainable. And if the answer is not, we shouldn't build a stadium like that. And I think that can be applied to a lot of different things, right?

What's an example you like? What's a recent thing you saw where you were like, "Wow, that is a great example of regenerative design"? 

[00:13:41] Lorenzo: think what's interesting that is going on nowadays is more like private endeavors, active citizenship, so people, individuals that are making collectives, organizations and they have some amazing projects like,

Precious Plastic, was it? Starting from there, picking up plastics that normally get thrown away in the streets or whatever, and then make something beautiful out of that, like design objects,The Ocean Cleanup. It's another pretty nice example. It's pretty big, obviously. I know many tinier projects also I'm involved in, which are interesting in my opinion. At some point, like at least for me, the way I see it, there are certain things that are very frustrating and that anger me. And the way I think is not to be angry about it is to channel that anger in something constructive and do something about it. And generally speaking, you cannot wait for a top down approach where a solution is gonna happen from the top. 

So you need to get your hands dirty and do something about it, right? So picking up plastic around the city and make design objects as an individual, I think is a pretty bold statement. And, I always say like, the problems are big, yes. But if there is for one people that throws away a plastic bottle in a park, in a beautiful park, and there are two people that are picking the plastic bottle up, there will be no plastic bottles on the floor.

Everything is connected. The butterfly effect is real. Like we do something here, mega structures, villas, whatever, whatever. And then there's not gonna be enough there. Or temperature goes up, sea levels rise up, and someone on a tropical island that had nothing to do with it has no island anymore, no home anymore, and needs to be relocated. Everything is connected and if we think in those terms of there is finite resources and what is being done here will affect what's happening there, then we will go somewhere. But I think that the change has to happen from the bottom up locally.

[00:15:23] Dominique: I think you have a very healthy global view on problems. And not everybody has. Which I think is just very interesting.

[00:15:29] Lorenzo: Well, this is a topic that I've been discussing with many, many different people It's my conclusion. I'm not advocating that is the truth, but I find that generally speaking, people in control tend to be not the right people to be in control. 

So there is a tendency of wanting to be in control, have power, and have money in those characters that are not fit for being in control. And the ones that actually are fit because they're actually not interested in power, not interested in money, not interested in controlling everything, but are more about sharing, are more about, if I renounce this thing, maybe these other two people that I know can actually have a bit of that or split it, that makes it much, much happier. So I think it's all connected.

[00:16:11] Dominique: You mentioned Precious Plastics. I wanna mention that if anybody's curious about Precious Plastics and some things they're doing, there's another episode about that previously in the lineup. So,

[00:16:20] Lorenzo: I'm gonna definitely check it out. It's gonna be amazing. Yeah. I love that guy. 

[00:16:23] Dominique: Joseph Klatts 'episodes are very, very interesting and he's linked to a very scalable, regenerative organization, which is cool. Also, I think we talk a lot on this podcast about like climate anxiety, and I just wanted to comment that I think you experience climate anger. That's interesting. Nothing to unpack. I just think that's interesting and I don't hear that as often, and I wonder if people would relate to that if it was a more common term. I wonder.

[00:16:46] Lorenzo: Well, I don't like the term anxiety because even though you are experiencing anxiety, if you call it anxiety, it feels that it's something hopeless. 

[00:16:54] Dominique: You feel, the anger is more actionable?

[00:16:56] Lorenzo: Yeah, 

I'm not sure if I agree. I don't think I disagree, but I'm not sure if I agree. 

I think so. 'Cause anger can be a very productive force, if you're not a violent person and you believe in being peaceful, that anger can be transformed into something. "Okay. I'm so fed up at this point that I need to do something about it, otherwise I'm gonna go crazy."

[00:17:15] Dominique: I believe anger could be more motivating than anxiety.

[00:17:18] Lorenzo: Yeah, I think anxiety to me is a symptom of anger rather than being on the same plane. I think it comes after. So when you're angry, You can be pushed to change something, like being productive 

So if you're feeling hopeless about anything that has to do with environment and all that kind of stuff, I think the best cure is to do something about it and you'll find yourself in a much better place. I think, it's okay not to be the one that solves the problem, but helps someone else after, or side by side to you to actually do it, right? So it's not about being the face on the poster, it's about doing something you believe in, which in turn does magic for you. Makes you feel that your life has worth and you have a purpose. And then maybe you're gonna motivate other people or maybe you're gonna allow someone else to finish the job or continue it and make it better.

[00:18:06] Dominique: Which for you, that was getting involved with the community that allows you to be a part of tree plantings. Correct?

[00:18:12] Lorenzo: Yeah. So the big problem at the moment is that we need to plant millions of trees. It's not the one solution for all problems, but it's an important thing to do. And the problem, at least in Europe, and especially in Italy, there is a lack of public tree nurseries, okay? They got shut down because over the years there was less and less investment in anything that had to do with something that is good, I guess. So, healthcare, education, culture, so theater, cinema, you name it, music, whatever, right? 

And so there was also a cutting funding of public tree nurseries, okay? So if we want to plant, let's say that in Italy, we are supposed to plant 60 million trees, okay? Then, where do you find those trees? Someone has to make them. 

[00:18:53] Dominique: And you can't make them quick.

[00:18:54] Lorenzo: So yeah, you go pick up like acorns, seedlings, whatever, and then I guess you have to private forest nurseries, right? And you start raising plants. 

[00:19:03] Dominique: How long does it take to grow a tree that's ready to be planted?

[00:19:06] Lorenzo: It depends on the tree, but generally speaking, so the most important thing to know about this stuff is that obviously you need to work with native trees, but also local genomes. You cannot go pick up acorns in Tuscany and then plant them somewhere else in, for example, in Latium, right around Rome, because local genomes are adapted to the soil condition, the wetness, the rains and all that kind of stuff. So, you need to work locally. 

That means that you need to open forest nurseries locally so that you can plant locally and you can also increase biodiversity, right? So you have more hubs or hotspots of biodiversity, and that's really helpful. So the aim is to open as many forest nurseries as possible. 

And then to answer your question, how long does it take? Depends on the plant. But I will say that from what I've seen, the organization I'm involved in doing. I guess four years is something, three, four years, ready to be planted.

So, you first have them in a safer environment where they're covered from really direct sunlight and heavy rain or hail. And then they're ready to be moved outside and be tempered by direct sunlight and direct rain or whatever environmental forces. And then you can basically plant them and depending on the soil and all those kind of things, you need to help them somehow, right? So very helpful to use like fungi in the root system so that they can actually help them spread and get nutrients from other plants and build a network via mycelia network. The fungi thing. And then if, for example, the place is super dry, you can also use hydro gel That is gonna keep the roots watered, like for way longer, even if it doesn't rain. 

[00:20:39] Dominique: I think the energy you clearly have about this topic is just very evident. And I think that that is just, it's very cool when you first shared the fact that you found this through wanting like a positive outlet.

[00:20:51] Lorenzo: I'm back home in Frascati. I'm from Rome originally as you pointed out before. And so my studio has a window on a public park that is like not doing great, but with beautiful trees. And it's often dirty because of kids coming out of high school and, or secondary school, whatever joint stuff or boars that are actually wild pigs that are actually tipping over trash bins. And then the trash goes all over the place. Or people with dogs, dog products around, if you know mean and so that was very frustrating because I'm working watching that every single day. So at some point I was going nuts and I had to channel that anger, I guess. I'm a very peaceful person, but you know, I get angry.

[00:21:31] Dominique: This podcast is not painting you as such, but I can attest.

[00:21:35] Lorenzo: Yeah. So that's about the trees. And then also there are many other important things like, sea grass, I guess, that produces way more oxygen than plants on land. And that's super important, at least in the Mediterranean Sea. So that's also very, very interesting. 

[00:21:48] Dominique: Okay. I'm gonna bring us back to design. So you hosted a workshop this week for innovators 

but if you were to share what the key focus was of your workshop for the innovation teams when they're working on thinking about regeneration and sustainability, what was the focus?

[00:22:03] Lorenzo: I think the most important thing about the workshop and in general is to know why you're doing stuff. So it's very common if you meet a new person, it's very common to say, what's your name, whatever, whatever. And then you're gonna ask, what do you do? And that's normal because the biology of the brain works like that. It's the neocortex that works in a certain way. 

What actually motivates people is what the limbic system of the brain does, which is connected with emotions and all that kind of stuff. And it's the why. If you have a very clear why, your startup will definitely have more chances of being successful. So we talked about a bit of this philosophy, I guess, about having the "why" clear in your head, in mind as a vision as on horizon and follow that.

And that makes it so much easier to make decisions about your startups and not divert from your true purpose, your North Star if you want. So we talked about that and we talked about why startups fail and it's because they are experiments. So it's normal that experiments are bound to fail. That's the nature of what a startup is. 

[00:23:01] Dominique: That's the magic of making a new thing.

[00:23:02] Lorenzo: Yeah. So like 9 out of 10 startups fail. So, why is that? And it's actually normal. They are experiments, so they're supposed to fail. And we also talked about how to fail way sooner, way faster and more often so that you can resolve more problems and then in the end you're gonna be a bit more resilient and many other things.

[00:23:19] Dominique: My last question for you is around the carbon footprint of this event. 

Lorenzo's Workshop at NanoValbruna

[00:23:24] Dominique: I know I know you've been part of thinking about the fact that this event is international and this form is being put together to talk about regeneration, sustainability, but it itself needs to be sustainable. Can you just briefly explain how this year there's been an approach to looking at the footprint of the event and where that data is coming from?

[00:23:43] Lorenzo: Yes. So for me it was super important. I think that you cannot have a forum or festival, however you want to call it about sustainability and regeneration, if you're not taking into account what is your carbon footprint. So in order to know what is your carbon footprint and do something about it, then you need to start tracking and then once you track, then you have data, and then you visualize data so people can see what the problem looks like. And then you can do something about it. We can plant trees, we can, offset carbon, 

[00:24:10] Dominique: Yeah. 

[00:24:11] Lorenzo: many different ways. And that's okay.

Tracking NanoValbruna's Carbon Footprint

[00:24:12] Dominique: You're at the stage where you can't improve what you don't measure , Exactly. you're not measuring and so, so what are you measuring? 

[00:24:18] Lorenzo: Well, we're trying to measure everything. So starting from, we have a checking and checkout form for anyone that comes to the festival as a speaker, as a volunteer, as a jury member.

[00:24:28] Dominique: So you're tracking the transit and the travel of each guest?

[00:24:31] Lorenzo: Yes. All the different means of transport as well as how many meals, how many nights out, so you know, nights in the hotel, how many meals, et cetera, et cetera. We are tracking all the different facilities like the hotel that where we are speaking at, where there is the festival this year. We are tracking the consumption of water and electricity prior to the festival starting, and then at the end, so we are taking pictures of the meters, right? 

And then at the end of the festival so we see how much we consumed in terms of electricity and water. We are tracking every night how much waste, plastic, paper, all sorts of food waste that we produce in terms of kilos, how much stuff we have printed, all sorts of things. It's painful, there's a lot of work involved in that, but if you want to do something truly regenerative, you need to put yourself through the grinder. The grinder is not easy work, but it's, you have to do it if you're serious about it. Otherwise, anything can become greenwashing quite easily.

[00:25:26] Dominique: Yeah. I think that brings us home very nicely because you talked about design being very meaningful and you're thinking about looking at the design of the form itself very meaningfully from a big picture, which you also mentioned before of like this like resource stewardship a little bit, and the big picture view that if we're being really small and thinking about just this one thing and not thinking about scalability, then that's a problem. And so I think it's really cool that you're taking, like, frankly the uncomfortable look at a thing that might be difficult at first to navigate, but it'll be very interesting to see what comes of it and how the event changes shape and just how like consciousness of the footprint of something like this is not nothing.

Thank you. This was very interesting. Is there any way people can support you or learn more about you after this episode?

[00:26:12] Lorenzo: You'll find me anywhere, from LinkedIn to instagram, I'm still there not using it very much, but for example, the organization Anonima Reforestazioni where we plant trees obviously we have a channel there, so if you want to follow us and support us there for donations, we basically invest a hundred percent almost of what we get in donations, into making trees and then planting them. the website, it should be anonimariforestazioni.com 

 Quiet, it's quiet.design is the website and, yeah, that's it.

Thank you. Thank you for chatting with me Thank you. 

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[00:26:44] Dominique: So Adam, what'd you think of Lorenzo's episode?

[00:26:47] Adam: Oh, I was cracking up. I loved his quote that it's great to be in a democracy where everybody can voice their opinion, but just because you have the freedom of having an opinion, maybe you shouldn't necessarily share it all the time. 

[00:26:58] Dominique: Yeah, I definitely do think that was funny, but I like the take on the fact that it is a very noisy world and it is harder and harder to get information to the people who need it. Especially when you're a designer. Like that's your whole point of view is how can this be crystal clear and how can this reach everybody I'm trying to reach?

[00:27:17] Adam: And I think that's the point of what Lorenzo is doing is creating very clear messages that capture people's imagination and attention in order to elevate them, right? So if you look at the whole Nanovalbruna website and all the work that he's done developing that, like, it's beautiful and it draws people in and I think you need that good design and really solid design in order to really help communicate these ideas.

[00:27:38] Dominique: Yeah, he really is the creative mind behind the branding and the marketing of then Nanovalbruna and how that story gets told. And so I think it was also really great to hear his take on talking about tracking the program's impact because it's a really big part of coming together for sustainability. We can't forget about sustainability as we're coming together. All of that gathering has a footprint and I think he's doing a really good job of bringing that really tactful design skills to that space.

[00:28:08] Adam: it's a fantastic way to be able to measure here's what we're doing and create that possibility of where, where you're going. 

[00:28:14] Dominique: Another great green champion.

[00:28:16] Adam: As always, our guests have found a unique way to champion sustainability. 

We are here to put real names and stories behind the idea that no matter your background, career, or interests, you really can contribute in the fight against climate change. 

[00:28:26] Dominique: You can find our episodes and reach us at thegreenchampions.com If you wanna stay in the loop, give us a review and follow us on your favorite podcast platform.

Our music is by Zane Dweik. Thanks for listening to The Green Champions, we'll be digging into our sustainability success story in this mini series and our next episode. 

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