Brittanie Dabney - Filtering out the Facts on Forever Chemicals (PFAS and Microplastics)

[00:00:00] Adam: Hello and welcome to another episode of Green Champions.

[00:00:13] Dominique: Thanks for joining us in a conversation with real people, making real environmental change in the work that they're doing. I'm here with Adam, the social enterprise extraordinaire.

[00:00:21] Adam: And I'm so glad to be here alongside Dominique, the sustainability expert. We bring you guests who saw the potential for impact in their job or community and did something about it.

[00:00:30] Dominique: From entrepreneurs to artists, scientists to activists, this podcast is a platform for Green Champions to share their stories and plant some new ideas.

[00:00:39] Adam: Today, Dominique and I are joined by Brittanie Dabney, who's an environmental scientist with over 10 years of experience in environmental toxicology research. Environmental toxicology is the field of science that's concerned with the study of harmful effects of various chemical and biological and physical agents on living organisms.

So Brittanie is currently a PhD candidate in Biology and Urban Sustainability at Wayne State University. And last time we really got to dive into her love for why she got involved in this and what it actually looks like being a scientist out in the field doing research as well as talking about how we share what we do with the people around us and getting other people kind of involved in that. So I'm excited to dive deeper into the research on what it means. So, Brittanie, welcome back.

[00:01:22] Brittanie: Thank you for having me again.

[00:01:23] Dominique: 

Brittanie, you wanna remind our listeners what really sparked your interest in environmental toxicology and just why this is important to you?

[00:01:30] Brittanie: Yeah, so just the fact that my parents got me out in nature, but also since I'm from Detroit, sort of seeing the disparities between the city, mostly black population here in Detroit as well as what's happening in the suburbs, in rural America and sort of seeing the differences in the environment, like, in the city, some more harmful chemical exposure, more toxicants in the air. 

Also, disparities between, childhood asthma rates, things like that that are brought on due to environmental impacts. And so wanting to study that in more detail got me really interested in this space, and particularly water because it's so complex. We don't know much still and there's also a lot more variables that impact the transport and fate of those contaminants. So, yeah, that got me interested.

[00:02:22] Dominique: And last time we talked about how interconnected the water supply is and just the fact that you're studying the chemicals that are in the water we all rely on everyday. And you've been studying this for like 10 years, which is a long time. And I wanna bring us to today and the fact that this is so topical right now. 

Can you share why this is so topical? Why right now microplastics, PFAS, forever chemicals, what are these things we're about?

[00:02:49] Brittanie: So we initially didn't, of course, think anything of it when they were being produced, whether it's shipped over here or used in our adhesives and our flame retardant, whether it's from airports, military bases, but also our water resistant clothing. But now that we've seen especially in other parts of the country, particularly in the south, there's been a lot of issues early on with PFAS.

And then later, because, well, I'm here in Michigan in the Great Lakes we had the dilution factor. So, there's this saying, "Dilution is the solution to pollution", but it is usually just a delayed sort of solution. So, definitely just understanding that this is a issue at very low concentrations, and it's an issue mainly because it's everywhere.

So we have huge exposure to it. If we're wearing certain clothing, we have skin contact. And depending on the size of particular contaminants they can actually go through the skin barrier. So just understanding that there's so many details about the chemical and physical characteristics of a contaminant that affects its fate and everybody is gonna be impacted differently.

And so understanding on a population level who's more impacted by these contaminants is pretty important. And then also, understanding sort of how they travel throughout the ecosystem is important as well. 

We're hearing about these things mainly because we still don't know much about it. So they're called emerging contaminants of concern. There's still a lot we don't know in comparison to PCBs, another forever chemical. As well as microplastics would be emerging contaminant concern as well 'cause there's still so much we don't know. It's fairly recent in our studies of contamination. So that's probably why we're hearing a bit more about it, but also because we just simply don't know, all the different impacts of it.

[00:04:47] Adam: Yeah, I feel like I read something about microplastics in your brain or other weird spots

Everyday now. 

[00:04:53] Brittanie: Yeah, it's a lot.

[00:04:55] Dominique: What's the stat they've been saying lately? Like every person consumes a credit card's worth of microplastic every day. Is that what the number

[00:05:02] Brittanie: Yeah. 

[00:05:04] Dominique: Yeah, that's jarring. 

[00:05:05] Brittanie: Yeah. That's crazy. I think I read a story about how it might impact future gener- like it goes from the womb and to the egg or something like that. And then the child has microplastic. 

They can have impacts immediately especially childbearing women. For some contaminants we do have actual standards. Like if you're of a certain demographic, don't eat too much of a certain particular food because it's likely to be contaminated with something that you shouldn't have, 'cause you'll be impacted more.

[00:05:38] Adam: We don't have that unfortunately, at least right now, or that I know of for PFAS. S

o looking at specifically like the research that you've done, what are some successes you've had with your research?

[00:05:49] Brittanie: we focus a lot on just doing the research, getting it published, and then having some sort of impact on let's say there's a community that they're currently in the state of trying to understand what's happening in their area. They might've detected some PFAS or like any type of contaminant, and then they might reach out to the scientists to see just get more insights. 

I feel like for me, just knowing that my research has been used, whether that's in legal proceedings or just by people in the community that helps them to better educate those that they're trying to get to come along with them on their journey to make their environment clean.

I feel like for me, that would be a success. And then of course, through my research, being able to still go out there, do outreach work and really educate people on these different contaminants that I'm studying.

[00:06:44] Adam: What sort of things are you educating people on when you're talking to them about contaminants?

[00:06:48] Brittanie: Yeah, mainly how it just impacts them directly because I feel likepeople might think it's not impacting them, so getting people to understand where these issues are around them and how it directly impacts them and what are the different ways it can impact them. But also within those conversations I do like talking about the solutions and maybe some things aren't as bad as it seems like the, the credit card headlines, things like that. And so, definitely I like to incorporate some solutions in the discussion.

[00:07:19] Dominique: How has this knowledge changed your life so far? 

I'm just thinking about Brittanie and her everyday life. You talked about like, these like kind of Gore-Tex material, outdoor clothing. I've heard about non-stick pans. Those are common places that were like learning about dangerous things that we thought were a positive add in our life. Can you share any like swaps you've made in your personal life or things that you avoid or are conscious of because we're really not sure of the dangers?

[00:07:44] Brittanie: For me it's always a balance between what's affordable and then what's safe. 

[00:07:50] Dominique: I like that about you. 

[00:07:51] Brittanie: Yeah, A lot of people have to deal with because unfortunately there is a lot of greenwashing going on. So they'll say something is safe and it's not really or they'll say it's more sustainable and it's not really. So I usually just try to educate myself, like when I'm out shopping, like about the products, I usually, I will choose something if I believe the messaging is correct, that it's sustainable and like no BPAs or no harmful chemicals. No harmful plastics. I usually try to choose like products made with more natural materials. So I am conscious of that. 

[00:08:26] Dominique: But there is a point where like, in the sustainability space in particular, a lot of things are still novel. And so the price is ridiculous. Especially for something that, a lot of the products still might not last a very long time. And so just thinking about sort of the balance between that. So I try to be conscious of both, Yeah, that definitely touches on that really tough conversation of sustainability is often like a point of privilege to be able to be taking part in it. I mean, you can't just swap out everything you own for the next thing that's more sustainable. That doesn't make sense. You can't choose the newest thing that is greenwashed and sold to you like that doesn't make sense. Oftentimes the most sustainable choice is the thing you already have. 

But I think this is an interesting topic because I think this is probably the first topic I've seen in sustainability where it makes me want to get rid of stuff that I've had. Like it makes me nervous about things that I own and wondering, like the damage they cause.

And I think it really highlights this topic of chemicals and toxicity, highlights the fact that certain populations are at risk of having harm done to them, while other populations are less at risk because they have the choice. Or they get to go to these like package-free grocery stores or things that have an upcharge on them.

[00:09:37] Brittanie: Yeah. And that's a huge issue and hopefully that'll be addressed based off of like the demand and supply of these products further on. And I do think it will change and I think sort of making it so that there's a huge demand for it and that companies actually will produce more of it, I think will bring down the cost.

But yeah, like you were saying, a lot of these, especially the grocery stores that are more sustainable focused, they tend to only have, what, a few in the state or something like that. It is not very prevalent. A lot of people will have to travel further to get to it and it's just not, it's still not very feasible for a lot of people. 

And so that is something, even though I'm not directly making those decisions, I do think about it quite a bit in what I do. I try to think about what are people's everyday lives and how are they impacted or exposed to certain things, certain harmful contaminants, but also how are people so far removed from the solution? Meaning like they might want to participate but they're unable to, like, what are the accessibility issues?

[00:10:44] Dominique: Can you share more about what the legislation has been that your research has contributed to?

[00:10:48] Brittanie: Yeah, mainly, when I was in Colorado, the conversation about mountaintop mining, doing work with harmful metals, at abandoned mining sites. just being able to contribute to their argument in terms of wanting to stop the mountaintop removal which is a different mining practice. But also when you get to a local level being an expert for those that are gonna be making decisions on a policy level. Not that the scientists themselves should be activists, 'cause I know that can come with different issues depending on what your philosophy is.

But, also just understanding that there are groups trying to solve this issue and work on it actively. And so being a resource for them, whether that's through just educating them on what they're trying to do for their communities, I think is important as well.

[00:11:41] Adam: When thinking about that change that you are actively creating with activist groups or things that you still want to see, what is that? What are the questions you still have when thinking about this topic or things that you're really passionate about seeing quick change on?

[00:11:55] Brittanie: I definitely hoping to see quick change when it comes to like how we allow certain products in the market. Of course there's a lot of companies, like larger companies are lobbying, they're working in a lot of these spaces where our environmental regulation is being set. And that's fine to have their perspective, but also, there's this, I like to think more about like, "What would life be like if we actually were more precautionary rather than reactionary?"  Is it possible to just test our chemicals like to their fullest extent before they're put into the consumer market.

I feel like that's something that is going to need to of course be done on the the policy regulatory level, but also thinking about the cost of this research and how can we make it easier for that to actually happen in a faster pace 'cause we're a fast-paced society. 

 a lot of the times we're just trying to get products out there to the market. We might know some of the effects of some of the components of that chemical mixture, but not all of them. And then also thinking about, there's still trade secrets and we don't have easy access to the full list of chemicals in a product and that's for a reason.

 so definitely more testing, but also more transparency would be nice, especially when I was working with pesticides, there is what's called like surfactants, which can be a full list of different chemicals, but it's not very explicit what those are. 

[00:13:28] Dominique: 

[00:13:28] Adam: So this year you've launched a new venture called Ecosphere Organics. How does that help address some of these issues? 

[00:13:34] Brittanie: We're really focused on addressing the issues in the sustainability product market by basically converting food waste and turning that to raw materials for the downstream industry. So, let's say there is a designer, a manufacturer that wants a sustainable product, but the issue right now is the actual feed stock is not consistent. Meaning if I were to get coffee grounds from one place, I don't know if I'm gonna be able to get that again so that they can scale what product they wanna scale. And so we're focused on addressing that, not just through the bio refining process, but also through implementing machine learning platforms that can then help with material selection. 

Because the other thing is a lot of people don't know what sustainable materials are, what they can be used in, because they have different use cases. And so we're focused on doing that as well as making it an easier process for everyone involved at the early stages of supply chain where you're converting the waste into a raw material.

The idea really came about because I'm studying microplastics. So what's the alternative to microplastics that could be safer? It's a organic waste stream. And particularly focused on waste because we also don't wanna repeat a harmful cycle of growing something in order to produce a product when we have so much valuable waste streams that we could tap into.

Thinking about corn in particular, it would be unsustainable to be using our plots of land to grow corn for a product rather than just using the corn waste that already exists for a product. Trying to move us further towards that versus repeating a harmful cycle in product development.

[00:15:22] Dominique: At what stage is your business at right now? What are you focused on? Are you looking at product development right now and just finding some like hero products? Or are you looking for sources of waste or looking for buyers?

[00:15:34] Brittanie: right now we're transitioning into looking for buyers because we already have our material composite. So we have materials from the food waste that could be alternatives to whether it's the bioplastics currently on the market or harmful plastics. And then we also already have our process down. So right now we're mainly looking for buyers of those raw materials, but also those that wanna innovate in the space. So maybe they wanna switch out a harmful chemical or harmful physical ingredient that was used to construct their product would they be interested in maybe trying coffee grounds or eggshells. 

Right now what's really popular is the citrus peel, another thing we're focused on right now is our Waste to Wonder event, where we're actually giving the pigments that were refined from food waste. We're giving those to artists for free who are currently in the process of incorporating them in their art pieces. So the art so far looks really amazing and I'm really excited to see them showcase it here in Detroit during the month of design, so.

[00:16:35] Adam: I love that. Cool. 

So who are your ideal customers for Ecosphere Organics?

[00:16:40] Brittanie: There's the food waste supplier, so those who we're gonna be collecting the waste from and we're hoping to, our goal is to really turn this into a commodity. So eventually it would be more of a partnership where like they might be paying for pickup, but then we're also paying them for the food waste.

And then also the manufacturers and product designers that are going to be using or purchasing these raw materials. And then of course, those that want help with product development. So we're kind of all over the board, but we're trying to take it one step at a time so we already addressed the food waste collection issue, keeping it consistent, being able to refine it at a consistent rate. And so now we're in that piloting stage of finding the actual purchaser that wants to create a more sustainable product.

[00:17:29] Dominique: If someone's listening and they're in RND for their organization and they're seeking to find different ways to bring about products they're working on is that the ideal person for that side of the business? Is that what they'd usually be doing?

[00:17:44] Brittanie: Yeah. 

[00:17:44] Dominique: That's very interesting. I think there's just so much need for looking like at the beginning of this ecosystem with products, how we regulate them, what they're made out of. I love that you study the end of the journey essentially when you think of the assessment of a product life, you really are looking at the very end and the effects of it when you do the research. I think it's so cool that you're connecting that back to finding solutions for the beginning because of the knowledge you have. And that I feel is such a well-rounded view of like really how we build sustainable systems. So thanks Brittanie for doing that great work for the rest of us.

[00:18:17] Brittanie: Yeah, no, I'm happy to do it. But also, I was actually in a couple workshops through CASA-Bio. They're put on through the federal government, just bringing like stakeholders together to understand and find solutions around the bio economy. And so the workshops I was involved were focused on that early stage of supply chain and there's really a lot that needs to be done. But that could be done if we are able to gather the resources needed to do that. 

And so there's a lot coming down the pipeline and hopefully we're able to speed this along a bit faster so that we can meet those 2030 goals, those 2050 goals, especially related around climate in our protection of our environment.

[00:19:03] Adam: I feel like we've covered a lot today. It's been really fun. Just really diving into your accomplishments on the science side and talking about policy and how this actually brings around change in the world. All the way up to what you're doing with Ecosphere Organics and how you are diverting these waste streams into something that's useful, especially around food waste, giving people new products and new ways to have alternatives that don't create more waste.

[00:19:25] Dominique: And I appreciate having a human voice and a real scientist behind all that I've been hearing about forever chemicals and PFAS and it's very scary. I'm curious, who do you trust when you read articles or when you are hearing the science develop on these topics?

probably not too many people might like this, but really the EPA website is a really good resource. They have a ton of information as well as if you're interested in the environment, sort of understanding your landscape. USGS, like there's a lot of resources out there already that can help you understand, especially the EPA, like chemical contamination, what's coming that they're thinking about.

[00:20:05] Brittanie: So food waste is a huge topic right now, but also thinking about e-waste, like there's so much, like, whatever interest you have around this area, you can definitely find it through any of the government websites. 

Also I like going through Google Scholar, I usually get the alerts and so whatever topic you're interested in, you can set up your alerts and then also don't be scared to reach out to scientists directly because a lot of those papers are gonna be behind paywalls, but if you just reach out to a scientist, they're gonna be more than happy to just send you over the full PDF of their research.

So definitely, it's a mix of both. 

[00:20:42] Dominique: 

[00:20:42] Adam: How do people find out about Ecosphere Organics and support the work that you're doing?

[00:20:46] Brittanie: ecosphereorganics.com. You can find everything about the company. You can also find out about the event, Waste to Wonder we're hosting here in Detroit. Also on LinkedIn, Instagram, and definitely sign up for our newsletter for more details about our progress. 

I'm just curious before we wrap up, Brittanie, were there any stats or data points or things about these chemicals that you wanted us to include?

I feel like the stats are always gonna be changing. But I do wanna note that with PFAS in particular, like we thought it was at sort of a higher concentration of exposure that it will have an impact, but we're finding that at very low concentrations we could still have an impact on the human body and accumulation of those contaminants.

That's something that came out last year, I believe, or the year before that. But now they're starting to try to do something about that by incorporating better filtration systems in our drinking water. Yeah, that's terrifying. you mentioned like impacts on the human body. What does that mean? Yeah, so it can happen on a level that is not noticeable at first. So impacts can be acute or chronic. They can be at a subcellular level or very obvious. When it comes to contaminants like pCBs or PFAS, the forever chemicals, even the new ones that's being produced. You always wanna think about how they could be impacting you at a subcellular level or a sub lethal level, meaning you're not really seeing the immediate impacts. And so that can be generational, it could be chronic sort of endocrine disruptors that affects like your hormone levels. 

It can affect how other chemicals behave in the body and that's kind of, what I like to focus a lot on is like, at very small concentrations, is there an impact? And do we actually need to change our standards? 'cause we allow chemicals to be in the environment we allow them to be in our drinking water at a certain concentration. Because maybe that's the only capacity. Like we can't filter out a certain concentration or a certain size, particle size of that molecule. For me, when I think about that, I think of like, on a very sub lethal level. 

[00:22:57] Dominique: I learned so much chatting with you, so thank you.

[00:23:00] Brittanie: Oh, thanks for having me.

[00:23:01] Dominique: As always, our guests have found a unique way to champion sustainability. We're here to put real names and stories, just like Brittanie's, behind the idea that no matter your background, career or interests, you really can contribute in the fight against climate change.

[00:23:15] Adam: You can find our episodes at thegreenchampions.com. You wanna stay in the loop, give us a review or follow us on your favorite podcast platform. If you have questions about climate change or sustainability, you can reach us through our website at thegreenchampions.com. Our music is by Zayn Dweik. Thanks for listening to Green Champions, and we'll dig into another sustainability success story in our next episode. 

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